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Post by corab on Mar 12, 2011 6:45:31 GMT 10
I decided to address this separately from the Lausanne Congress thread because I didn't want to distract from the very valuable discussion that is taking place there. Smithee posted:- I was wondering whether you could elaborate on that, Smithee? I had always understood that in UGLE & amity Craft was governed by Grand Lodge, and the AASR and York Rite degrees by various different bodies. If they are truly separate, how could the Grand Lodges exert that kind of influence? Thanks for helping me understand! With h.g.w.,
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Post by Azaziel on Mar 12, 2011 18:28:44 GMT 10
I decided to address this separately from the Lausanne Congress thread because I didn't want to distract from the very valuable discussion that is taking place there. Smithee posted:- I was wondering whether you could elaborate on that, Smithee? I had always understood that in UGLE & amity Craft was governed by Grand Lodge, and the AASR and York Rite degrees by various different bodies. If they are truly separate, how could the Grand Lodges exert that kind of influence? Thanks for helping me understand! With h.g.w., Here in NSW GL can ban you from attending any order that they feel has voilated GL rules, just recently the Scottish KT's were banned and as a KT I was not allowed to visit them, under threat of being expelled from the craft
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 12, 2011 22:00:38 GMT 10
Under UGLE amity, the old humbug about recognition applies not only between Grand Lodges but also between other Orders and also along lines of dependency. For instance, continuing Craft membership is required to join and remain in the Royal Arch; continuing Royal Arch membership is required to join the Knights Templar; and continuing Templar membership is required to join the Templar Priests (plus being an Installed Master in the Craft).
Each is a different organization but each of the prerequisite Orders may require the further Order/s to cooperate in their terms of membership or be placed "out of bounds." For instance the Craft usually requires a minimum period between being raised and joining other Orders and also requires a condition of continuing Craft membership. Membership of any "masonic" Order which is not explicitly considered "regular" by the Grand Lodge is prohibited.
Thus, whereas under the Supreme Council system, authority comes from above, under the Grand Lodge system, it comes from below - with all of the so-called "higher" Orders operating, as Smithee said, under the sufferance of the Grand Lodge, which, while it may permit its members to join these other Orders, rank in them carries no weight within the Grand Lodge.
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Post by corab on Mar 12, 2011 22:26:20 GMT 10
Thanks for explaining guys - I can see how that could present a potential obstacle to a future Congress, and I think a Preliminary Congress on GL / Craft level as Tamrin suggested in the Lausanne thread makes a lot of sense.
It's interesting to see how different Jurisdictions have developed in different ways. For my Order this issue wouldn't arise, because of our landmark of Initiatory Continuity -- which means that the whole of the AASR from 1st to 33rd degree are administered under the auspices of one and the same body: the Supreme Council. It likewise administers the Allied or York Rite Degrees.
There's no need to join another body to join Mark, HRA or any of the Higher Degrees -- it all is part of the same body, and is all governed by the same International Constitution and General Regulations.
It's an interesting difference in working.
With h.g.w.,
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 13, 2011 7:36:52 GMT 10
For my Order this issue wouldn't arise, because of our landmark of Initiatory Continuity -- which means that the whole of the AASR from 1st to 33rd degree are administered under the auspices of one and the same body: the Supreme Council. It likewise administers the Allied or York Rite Degrees. I suggest caution in describing any policy as a "landmark" (which, by definition, is essential, unchangeable and "time immemorial"). Under our Craft system some appear to regard our first Regulation as a landmark: Most UGLE amity Grand Lodges will have a similar Regulation. The majority of our Craft Masons do not join further Orders and are often disparaging of them, even of the Mark and RA which are encompassed by the Regulation. For instance, when I joined a Mark lodge (before it came under the RA in NSW), my father was gently mocking in proclaiming that I had a Degree more than he, a GL Officer, while I, at the time, was just a MM. While an RA PZ jewel is controversially and begrudgingly permitted to be worn in Craft lodges, no other regalia of Orders beyond the Craft is permitted, although miniature lapel pins are tolerated. Promotion within Grand Lodge is fiercely independent of standing in other Orders and, for instance, it is the exception rather than the rule for Grand Masters to even be members of other Orders. The following (fuzzy) Queensland table depicts a similar system to that here in New South Wales:
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Post by Smithee on Mar 13, 2011 18:32:35 GMT 10
If they are truly separate, how could the Grand Lodges exert that kind of influence? Blackmail. If the other Orders don't toe-the-line, Craft members may be told they either can't join or must resign, if they wish to remain in the Craft.
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Post by corab on Mar 14, 2011 4:05:39 GMT 10
For my Order this issue wouldn't arise, because of our landmark of Initiatory Continuity -- which means that the whole of the AASR from 1st to 33rd degree are administered under the auspices of one and the same body: the Supreme Council. It likewise administers the Allied or York Rite Degrees. I suggest caution in describing any policy as a "landmark" (which, by definition, is essential, unchangeable and "time immemorial"). It is not a policy. In our Order it is considered to be a landmark - essential and certainly in the present revision of the Constitution (which occurs every 5 years) not up for change. Having said that, we only have to look at nature to know that landmarks are by no means unchangeable. It's quite the contrary in our Federation -- many of our MMs join the Mark, RAM and HRA and once they have been through the Chair they may progress to the RC. Beyond that, progress is based on merit and ability. HRA is considered to be Allied (YR), so we are not entitled to wear our HRA or Mark jewels in Craft meetings. Those brothers of the 18' or higher are entitled to wear there collarette in Craft meetings because we consider Craft to be the first 3 degrees of the AASR. With h.g.w.,
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Post by corab on Mar 14, 2011 4:06:45 GMT 10
If they are truly separate, how could the Grand Lodges exert that kind of influence? Blackmail. If the other Orders don't toe-the-line, Craft members may be told they either can't join or must resign, if they wish to remain in the Craft. Hmmm. Name the Three Grand Pillars on which The Order was founded..?
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 14, 2011 5:34:09 GMT 10
It's quite the contrary in our Federation Ay, there's the rub.
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 14, 2011 5:41:23 GMT 10
It is not a policy. In our Order it is considered to be a landmark - essential and certainly in the present revision of the Constitution (which occurs every 5 years) not up for change. My understanding, is that, in terms of masonic jurisprudence, the only landmarks are the so-called "Ancient Landmarks" (which we, like UGLE, and unlike many US jurisdictions, have not specified). Any characteristics which are not "ancient" are just temporal features.
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