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Post by maximus on Nov 28, 2010 8:25:28 GMT 10
Friedrich EngelsGerman social philosopher (Marx's collaborator) (Born this day 1820) [/i][/center][/quote] Would that he had been stillborn, and Karl as well, the world would have been better off.
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 28, 2010 8:56:25 GMT 10
Would that he had been stillborn, and Karl as well, the world would have been better off. Popper demonstrated that their "Dialectical materialism" was unfalsifiable and thus unscientific. Even so, that may be said of a number of intellectual traditions of their day (and since). They were both sincerely interested in the betterment of mankind. Sadly their ideas were used to justify totalitarian regimes to which they would have been bitterly opposed. To blame Marx and Engels for the selective, so-called "communism" of Stalin and Mao is like blaming Nietzsche (who hated Nationalism) and Mazzini for the so-called "socialism" of Hitler and Mussolini. If they had been stillborn, the dictators would have found other intellectual patsies. There remains much of value in their writings if one reads with caution, in the context of other opinions.
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Post by maximus on Nov 28, 2010 12:13:01 GMT 10
Would that he had been stillborn, and Karl as well, the world would have been better off. Popper demonstrated that their "Dialectical materialism" was unfalsifiable and thus unscientific. Even so, that may be said of a number of intellectual traditions of their day (and since). They were both sincerely interested in the betterment of mankind. Sadly their ideas were used to justify totalitarian regimes to which they would have been bitterly opposed. To blame Marx and Engels for the selective, so-called "communism" of Stalin and Mao is like blaming Nietzsche (who hated Nationalism) and Mazzini for the so-called "socialism" of Hitler and Mussolini. If they had been stillborn, the dictators would have found other intellectual patsies. There remains much of value in their writings if one reads with caution, in the context of other opinions. Extreme caution. Ever notice how most communist intellectuals were either the idle rich, or, like Marx, a hanger-on? Marx's family almost starved to death because he was too lazy to get a job, just wanted to sit around and "think."
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 28, 2010 17:08:27 GMT 10
Extreme caution. Ever notice how most communist intellectuals were either the idle rich, or, like Marx, a hanger-on? Marx's family almost starved to death because he was too lazy to get a job, just wanted to sit around and "think." I guess yours is a common stereotype applied to all intellectuals, in some circles: Can you "name names"? I suggest Gramsci and others who actively fought against Fascism do not match your description. In the case of Marx, it may be useful to compare his ideas with those of Machiavelli, (both, in a sense, social structuralists), whose theories arose logically from opposite, flawed premises regarding Human Nature. Marx was at heart an Anarchist: Once the class struggles and the alienation which were, for him, an inherent part of Capitalism, were behind them, the State would naturally " wither away" and people would be naturally caring and co-operative. Whereas for Machiavelli, people were naturally shallow, grasping and vindictive, needing to be restrained — saying, for example: " Men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony." Ironically, both in their domestic lives contradicted their own theories of Human Nature. While much of what is said about Marx's personal life may be hype, he was evidently not a model husband and, despite Engel's generous sponsorship, the family budget was tight (mind you, their circumstances were not dissimilar to many other refugees in England at the time). Machiavelli, on the other hand, was a devoted, conscientious and loving husband and father as well as being a loyal, honest and industrious (even courageous) official.
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Post by maximus on Nov 29, 2010 10:07:02 GMT 10
Extreme caution. Ever notice how most communist intellectuals were either the idle rich, or, like Marx, a hanger-on? Marx's family almost starved to death because he was too lazy to get a job, just wanted to sit around and "think." I guess yours is a common stereotype applied to all intellectuals, in some circles: Can you "name names"? I suggest Gramsci and others who actively fought against Fascism do not match your description. I'm thinking, in particular, of our current President, one Barack Hussain Obama. According to those who knew him, in his college days, he hung around a rich Pakistani, Hassan Chandoo. According to John Drew, a contemorary of Obama's at Occidental: "When Barack Obama was a young man at Occidental College his sopomore year, he had a wealthy patron in Hassan Chandoo. They had a wonderful, big house where they threw lavish parties. Chandoo was throwing the money around. Obama was dressed in the nicest, slickest clothes... I thought they were both wealthy."1 Dr. Drew recalls going out to dinner with Obama and his roommate Chandoo in Chandoo's BMW while arguing for hours about the merits of Marxism and Leninism over drinks and cigarettes. He says: "Obama was arguing a straightforward Marxist-Leninist class-struggle point of view, which anticipated that there would be a revolution of the working class, led by revolutionaries, who would overthrow the capitalist system and institute a new socialist government that would redistribute the wealth."2 Chandoo later left Occidental, which left Obama high-and-dry, with no wealthy patron. After Chanoo left, Obama, left for Columbia, where he looked up a friend of Chandoo's, one Sohale Siddiqi, but Mr. Siddiqi was not a rich man, and Obama lived for a time in poverty (like most college students - I know I did, with concrete block and 2X4 shelves and goodwill furniture). Boo fricking hoo, to quote Dr. Evil. Scott Baker and Liz Stephans "Was Obama a committed Marxist in college?" Interview with Dr. John Drew and the B-Cast, Breitbart.TV, Feburary 12, 2010. www.breitbaet.tv/b-cast-interview-was-obama-a-committed-marxist-in-college/Ronald Kessler, "Obama Espoused Radical Views in College." Newsmax.com, Febuary 8, 2010. www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/obama-college-marxism-occidental/2010/02/08/id/349329
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Post by lanoo on Nov 29, 2010 10:29:40 GMT 10
I bet he's a Muslim as well
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Post by maximus on Nov 29, 2010 13:56:09 GMT 10
I bet he's a Muslim as well Now, now. I have not raised that particular issue, nor have hinted at it. There is much, much more than I have posted here. From his earliest mentor, to his chosen associates in youth (Frank Marshall Davis - CPUSA) and his college years, to his fellow travelers during his Chicago "Community organizer" phase (Rev. Jeremiah Wright - "God d--n America", Sol Alinsky - Rules for Radicals), to the current "Czars" and "Czarinas," there is a long and provable line of association with known Marxists and radicals. The mainstream media in the US, which cheered him on because of his race, ignored his past associations prior to his election. His current fiscal policies show a contempt for free market capitalism and business in general, which coupled with uncertainty over what impending new legislation the radical socialist-democrat Congress had up it's sleeve, has been a major stumbling block to economic recovery here - and which has effected world markets as well. When even the communist Chinese tell you to lay off the deficit spending, something's definitely wrong. Perhaps this should be in a separate thread. Philip?
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Post by Azaziel on Nov 29, 2010 16:53:32 GMT 10
I bet he's a Muslim as well Now, now. I have not raised that particular issue, nor have hinted at it. There is much, much more than I have posted here. From his earliest mentor, to his chosen associates in youth (Frank Marshall Davis - CPUSA) and his college years, to his fellow travelers during his Chicago "Community organizer" phase (Rev. Jeremiah Wright - "God d--n America", Sol Alinsky - Rules for Radicals), to the current "Czars" and "Czarinas," there is a long and provable line of association with known Marxists and radicals. The mainstream media in the US, which cheered him on because of his race, ignored his past associations prior to his election. His current fiscal policies show a contempt for free market capitalism and business in general, which coupled with uncertainty over what impending new legislation the radical socialist-democrat Congress had up it's sleeve, has been a major stumbling block to economic recovery here - and which has effected world markets as well. When even the communist Chinese tell you to lay off the deficit spending, something's definitely wrong. Perhaps this should be in a separate thread. Philip? The Chinese are a lot smarter than they are given credit for, and BTW if Obama is a Muslim( and everything says he is not) , then God help the US
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Post by Solomon on Nov 29, 2010 20:41:02 GMT 10
Perhaps this should be in a separate thread. Philip? Done.
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 30, 2010 5:45:23 GMT 10
Ever notice how most communist intellectuals were either the idle rich, or, like Marx, a hanger-on? From my reading, I am having difficulty with this stereotype being applied to Obama.
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