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Post by edwmax on Dec 27, 2012 1:01:42 GMT 10
... One of the main reasons I was attracted to Masonry was that it was about the Brotherhood of man and (aside from the GAOTU qualification), ... Leon The complete quote as used in Freemasonry is "The Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God"; the qoute as used by the Church is " Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man". Regardless of which version of the quote used, they both have the same meaning. This is a Church metaphor originating in the mid/late 1800's. So to understand the metaphor, one only has to realize 'brothers' have the SAME father; therefore the 'Brotherhood of Man' all have a belief in the same God as father of all mankind.
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Post by Jebediah on Dec 27, 2012 2:31:27 GMT 10
Ed, clear this up for me please. Are you saying only Christians ought to be Freemasons?
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Post by edwmax on Dec 27, 2012 2:58:52 GMT 10
Ed, clear this up for me please. Are you saying only Christians ought to be Freemasons? No I didn't.
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Post by Tamrin on Dec 27, 2012 5:35:04 GMT 10
Ed, clear this up for me please. Are you saying only Christians ought to be Freemasons? No I didn't.Right glad I am to be thus assured, especially as your earlier posts had seemed to point in that direction.
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Post by Tamrin on Dec 27, 2012 5:38:55 GMT 10
Not all Gnostics are Christians or Jewish for that matter. Gnostic is an adjective meaning 'learned'. As you stated, 'Gnostic Christians' are acceptable. They are Christian. Likewise, non-Christian Gnostics who believe in a supreme being are acceptable.
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Post by Tamrin on Dec 27, 2012 5:52:24 GMT 10
Then why join an organization that clearly requires a belief you do not have? The required belief of God is listed in the 25 Land Marks and dates back to 1390. This is wrong on several levels. Firstly you are making an assumption about a Brother which does not follow from what he has said (one might conceivably be a Christian and still welcome diversity in Freemasonry). One may well ask of of those who object to pagan membership why they joined an organisation which welcomes it? Mackey's 1858 list of 25 so-called "Ancient Landmarks" is itself an innovation: Bernard Jones gave a, Definition of a Masonic Landmark, in his Compendium (pp.333/4); an extract from which reads: ‘It is held that a landmark can be discovered, but not created; it cannot be changed or altered; it cannot be improved; it cannot be obliterated.’ Hence, according to Jones, modern Freemasons can neither create nor obliterate any genuine landmark that either mandates the exclusion of women or which permits their admission. Jones also wrote (p.335):Just as there is no authoritative definition, so no landmarks are named by the English Grand Lodge, which, in its wisdom, has neither defined nor specified them. It has been well said that ‘inferentially if the landmarks were approved by the Constitutions the same authority could disapprove, whereas landmarks are unchangeable.’ It should be impossible, therefore, for anybody to dogmatize in a matter in which Grand Lodge makes no pronouncement, and in which experienced masons cannot agree. [/blockquote][/quote] Moreover, even if we entertain Mackey's list, there is nothing in his so-called "Ancient Landmarks" which would preclude the membership of a pagan who profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Further, while the Old Charges required a profession of Christian faith, Anderson specifically proposed the change which was approved by the premier grand lodge: "YOU ADMIT THAT IT IS NOT IN THE POWER OF ANY MAN OR BODY OF MEN TO MAKE INNOVATIONS IN THE BODY OF MASONRY." The Regulation just quoted will be familiar to all who have attended an Installation Ceremony. It is one of the Ancient Charges and Regulations to which the Worshipful Master elect is called upon to give his assent before he ascends to the Chair of his Lodge.
In its origins, the Regulation stems from the early days of the Grand Lodge of England when, at a Meeting held on 24th June 1723, the Grand Lodge resolved:"That it is not in the power of any person, or body of men, to make any alterations, or innovation in the body of Masonry without the consent first obtained in the Annual Grand Lodge." Subsequently, in 1738, this resolution was incorporated into the Book of Constitutions as one of the new Regulations and it has since been accepted as one of the basic rules of the Craft, with the modification that the words "without the consent first obtained in the Annual Grand Lodge" have been dropped.In practice, we still follow the original wording (changes are sometimes made to the body of Masonry, as with the changes to the "Doctrine of Perfect Youth").
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Post by Tamrin on Dec 27, 2012 6:20:34 GMT 10
The complete quote as used in Freemasonry is "The Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God"; the qoute as used by the Church is " Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man". Regardless of which version of the quote used, they both have the same meaning.
This is a Church metaphor originating in the mid/late 1800's. So to understand the metaphor, one only has to realize 'brothers' have the SAME father; therefore the 'Brotherhood of Man' all have a belief in the same God as father of all mankind. This does not follow. A church metaphor from the 1800's is of too late an origin to be relevant here. Brothers may in a sense all share the same father but they do not necessarily share the same beliefs: Brothers do not necessarily agree on all things. Indeed, Freemasonry specifically seeks to, " to conciliate true friendship among those who may otherwise remain at a perpetual distance."
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Post by edwmax on Dec 27, 2012 11:32:59 GMT 10
Right glad I am to be thus assured, especially as your earlier posts had seemed to point in that direction. There is no such post!
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Post by Smithee on Dec 27, 2012 11:49:36 GMT 10
Right glad I am to be thus assured, especially as your earlier posts had seemed to point in that direction. There is no such post! The complete quote as used in Freemasonry is "The Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God"; the qoute as used by the Church is " Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man". Regardless of which version of the quote used, they both have the same meaning. This is a Church metaphor originating in the mid/late 1800's. So to understand the metaphor, one only has to realize 'brothers' have the SAME father; therefore the 'Brotherhood of Man' all have a belief in the same God as father of all mankind.
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Post by edwmax on Dec 27, 2012 11:51:55 GMT 10
Not all Gnostics are Christians or Jewish for that matter. Gnostic is an adjective meaning 'learned'. As you stated, 'Gnostic Christians' are acceptable. They are Christian. Likewise, non-Christian Gnostics who believe in a supreme being are acceptable. You have deliberately miss-quoted my post and taken my comment of context by removing part of the post. The above quoted comment was specifically about Torance's post where he was indicating Gnostics were Christian or was making his argument using Gnostic Christian as the basics. Therefore, my statement stands ... not all Gnostics are Christian and as furthermore ... not all Gnostic even believe in a God. Gnostic itself is not a religion, it is an adjective meaning 'learned'. So I suggest that you clarify what Gnostic you are referring too.
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