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Post by Tamrin on Apr 25, 2009 12:11:33 GMT 10
Are the Poor to Blame for their Poverty? Today is ANZAC day, when we remember the fallen. In WWI for every ten servicemen and women, two were killed and three were disabled: Wives, mother and sisters often had to devote the rest of their lives to the care of the disabled. In some way or another, every Australian family suffered. No one now would begrudge any effort to rebuild the shattered lives of those who returned. Disgracefully, we sometimes did little to help, as with the Vietnam veterans, who did what their country asked of them, faced the horrors and traumas of war and returned to an often hostile society which condemned them along with the war. Hopefully, we have now learned that shameful lesson and our troops in Iraq will return with the honours thy have earned and any ignominy for the unjust war will lie solely with the politicians. Consider though the deep physical scars and even deeper psychic scars of our Vietnam veterans. Recognition of their honourable service has been too little and too late, adding insult to their injuries. They returned to families who shared their stigma, resulting in some cases in generational dysfunction. What if we consider any generational dysfunction as deserving of the same priority as the rehabilitation of war veterans? Instead of taking a moralistic, punitive view that each individual ought to have the personal fortitude to rise above the situation in which they are placed by birth or accident. Indeed, from whence, we might ask, is such fortitude to come, if one is born into grinding poverty to parents who have not themselves been able to escape their cycle of despair? All of society suffers from not helping each member to achieve their potential: All of society benefits from the success of those it might otherwise have failed.
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Post by Azaziel on Apr 25, 2009 14:56:04 GMT 10
Indeed, from whence, we might ask, is such fortitude to come, if one is born into grinding poverty to parents who have not themselves been able to escape their cycle of despair? All of society suffers from not helping each member to achieve their potential: All of society benefits from the success of those it might otherwise have failed.[/quote]
Philip,
Whilst I agree with your general thoughts, I was born extremely poor and by hard work of myself I have improved my lot. It is simplistic to argue that it is all the fault of someone else.We are not all born equal, but hard work and a willingness to have a go are fundamental to improving ones position, I have no time or sympthay for those that choose to stay on welfare, they condemn themselves to poverty, and there are many like this.
However those who thru circumstance and unable to work , we as a nation should support them.
There is a big difference between the two groups and one solution fits all is terribly wrong, we should be saying to the longtermed umemployed, who are able to work, as opposed to those who thru misfortune and disability can't work, get off your lazy backside and work instead of offering them the easy way out by saying it is too hard, sorry, the only way to improve one lot is to work and work hard, and you know what, if these people did this, they would enjoy better health, improved self esteem, longer lifespan, and be productive members of society, with less crime.
In answer to your heading, yes some are and no some arne't
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 25, 2009 16:24:54 GMT 10
Terry, But what of generational disadvantage? While a few, such as yourself, have found the strength within themselves and have managed to improve their situation, they are the exceptions rather than the rule. Poverty usually breaks rather than makes character. True, attitude plays a huge part in making a difference, but what of children whose attitudes are molded by their environment? Are they to blame for the sins of their fathers? How do we break the cycle? Consider the analogy with veterans of war. They too have been scarred. Society assumes some responsibility for their rehabilitation. Why not also with those scarred by a life of grinding poverty? I'm not talking here about sit down money. What is needed is dignity and the best way to obtain dignity is by a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. In writing " In Darkest England, and The Way Out," General William Booth, the founder of The Salvation Army, drew up what he called The Cab Horse Charter. He observed that: When a horse is down he is helped up, and while he lives he has food, shelter and work. This was more than could be said of the situation in which many of the destitute people with whom Booth was concerned, were placed. As a result, "Work for All" became the keystone of his ministry. By analogy, we read of returned veterans, "All I ask is the right to work:" Rather than paying people for being out of work, we might reasonably expect them to work for the basic wage. There is certainly more than enough work to be done. I suspect the only reason this is not adopted is to keep overall wage demands down by contriving to maintain a minimal level of unemployment (this is a basic economic strategy). If so, we ought not blame the unemployed for being victims of our policy.
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Post by Azaziel on Apr 25, 2009 18:51:26 GMT 10
Philip,
Very true that children model their parents, if all you have seen is welfare , then most of these children will be welfare dependant, because of the attitude they have modelled themselves on, however I wonder what effect a stint in the military could do for these poor souls, I suspect that generations ago when this happened, it certainly kept unemployment down, and produced far better citzens for the country, and lets not forget many of these children have the ability, if shown and guided, to improve their lot, and I would argue over time this would cost our economy less, but the current situation and for last 30 years has not/ and is not working for the betterment of these people, and in fact I would suggest is doing the excat opposite to what is intended.
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Post by maximus on Apr 26, 2009 12:50:18 GMT 10
I'll have to agree with Terry on this.
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 26, 2009 13:10:26 GMT 10
I'll have to agree with Terry on this. As do I. Very true that children model their parents, if all you have seen is welfare , then most of these children will be welfare dependant, because of the attitude they have modelled themselves on, however I wonder what effect a stint in the military could do for these poor souls, I suspect that generations ago when this happened, it certainly kept unemployment down, and produced far better citzens for the country, and lets not forget many of these children have the ability, if shown and guided, to improve their lot, and I would argue over time this would cost our economy less, but the current situation and for last 30 years has not/ and is not working for the betterment of these people, and in fact I would suggest is doing the excat opposite to what is intended. With the caveat that, until we get around to ensuring work for all, we need to provide harm minimisation.
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Post by brothersteve on Jun 10, 2009 4:57:14 GMT 10
Are the Poor to Blame for their Poverty? Today is ANZAC day, when we remember the fallen. In WWI for every ten servicemen and women, two were killed and three were disabled: Wives, mother and sisters often had to devote the rest of their lives to the care of the disabled. In some way or another, every Australian family suffered. No one now would begrudge any effort to rebuild the shattered lives of those who returned. Disgracefully, we sometimes did little to help, as with the Vietnam veterans, who did what their country asked of them, faced the horrors and traumas of war and returned to an often hostile society which condemned them along with the war. Hopefully, we have now learned that shameful lesson and our troops in Iraq will return with the honours thy have earned and any ignominy for the unjust war will lie solely with the politicians. Consider though the deep physical scars and even deeper psychic scars of our Vietnam veterans. Recognition of their honourable service has been too little and too late, adding insult to their injuries. They returned to families who shared their stigma, resulting in some cases in generational dysfunction. What if we consider any generational dysfunction as deserving of the same priority as the rehabilitation of war veterans? Instead of taking a moralistic, punitive view that each individual ought to have the personal fortitude to rise above the situation in which they are placed by birth or accident. Indeed, from whence, we might ask, is such fortitude to come, if one is born into grinding poverty to parents who have not themselves been able to escape their cycle of despair? All of society suffers from not helping each member to achieve their potential: All of society benefits from the success of those it might otherwise have failed. A wonderful observation Brother!
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 10, 2009 7:06:51 GMT 10
Thank you Brother Steve: The issue is important.
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